PTypes - Correspondence (Archive 3): Previous messages

Archive 3 of messages to Correspondence of five personality typologies

Disclaimer. I have correlated PTypes personality types with David Keirsey's type descriptions in Please Understand Me (1984). Nothing that I say in these pages about the Keirsey and the Myers-Briggs® types should be construed to mean that I consider these two different systems to be identical. However, I do, also, correlate the Myers-Briggs® types with PTypes. But, as with Keirsey's, I am not asserting a scientific, or even logical, relationship between the Myers-Briggs® types and the PTypes personality types, but a correlative one.

MBTI, Myers-Briggs, and Myers-Briggs Type Indicator are trademarks or registered trademarks of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator Trust in the United States and other countries.

Previous messages

From:	chris lofting
	ddiamond@ozemail.com.au
	http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting
Date:	Fri, 15 Jun 2001

there is structure behind all of this.

From:	G. Albers
	galbers@bigfoot.com
Date:	Thur, 14 Jun 2001

I am consistantly an ENFP and a Gemini. My enneagrams are much less consistant. However, types 2, 4 and 7 are always there with an occasional 9 creeping in. None of my ennegrams results ever include a 6 or a 5. So I'm not sure of the validity of the relationships above.

+++You may not completely want, at this time, to know your type. This would particularly apply if you are in your early twenties or are younger.

From:	campbell hardy
	campbellsoup01@hotmail.com
Date:	Mon, 11 Jun 2001

I am an ESTJ from the age of 20 up till now (23ya). When I was 16 I scored ENTJ. As for the other dimensions they have been very stable across time. Some people argue that MBTI has a poor retest reliability. Whatever! 13 other social psych grad students and I have remained very stable. The pursuit of correlating the p types and pd's is a worthwhile venture. I have read your page up and down, shown many friends your page, and will continue to search in the same dircetions as you have! Please contact me with any additional info, questions, stumps, or ideas. I will be very interested to hear from you.

+++Thanks Campbell. I appreciate your interest.

From:	Jack
	mediator268@cs.com
Date:	Thur, 24 May 2001

Sometime this past winter, I recalled that you subscribe to the Socionics theory. After reading "C. G. Jung: The Collected Works" Sixth Volume, I tend to agree with Socionic followers that the MBTI was wrong in their assertion of type functions for introverts. It is clear that Jung termed Judgers as the feeling and thinking function, and Perceivers as the intuitive and sensor functions, subsequently changing the dominant function of, for an example INTJ type, from Ni to Ti, and the seceeding functions would also change. However, in review of Socionics type profile by functions, they have the INTJ as Ti, Ne, Fi, Se. Since the T is dominant, it seems that the weak function would be the opposite, or F. Also, Socionics shows both judging functions and perceiving functions to be the same for each type, i.e. both extraverted or both introverted. It would also seem that they would change making, once again the INTJ example, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe. Is there an explanation in keeping t! he judging and perceiving functions the same?

Jack

+++Hi Jack. I don't know anything about Socionics, or the Jungian and Myers-Briggs® function theories. I am an adopter of Keirsey's simplified scheme of types.

From:	Gary
	greecetrap@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 23 May 2001

Now that I've gone and taken the short version of the Enneagram, I find it interesting that not only am I an Aries, and an INTJ, but I also scored as 5w4.

From:	Gary T
	greecetrap@aol.com
Date:	Wed, 23 May 2001

Sometimes I feel as if I've been all over the place with Keirsey's Myers-Briggs type sorter. The first time I took the test in PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME, I scored as INXP, so I've been trying to figure out if I am actually borderline, or if I'm one or the other.

More recently, I've been taking an online course that is intended to help with career choice, using Myers-Briggs typology.

I'm definitely Introverted and Intuitive, but the T/F and J/P sometimes leave me reeling, and confused. The course I'm taking utilizes a book in which dominant and auxiliary functions are discussed. When I read through those, I found that I must be a dominant intuitive. Nothing else seemed to fit. This seemed to point to INTJ...not at all what I expected.

With regard to this web page, however, it is very, very interesting that INTJ's are said to be Aries, given that I'm an Aries on the cusp of Pisces.

Hmmm, yet another interesting system to consider and take into account....

From:	Gracie M.
	nomailbox@nowhere.com
	http://groups.yahoo.com/group/g-syn
Date:	Fri, 18 May 2001

Say what you want, Say, but if you were a *real* INTP you would be a Gemini! As for those so-called ESFJ Geminis... it's obvious to me that their birth certificates were forged. Say of course prefers the horniness of Aries but being a closet ENTP, she's a closet Gemini as well. *chairshot*

INTP Revolution - It's time.
We're Out There.

From:	Lisza....INTx, 4w5, Sensitive-Idiosyncratic
Date:	Wed, 9 May 2001

In response to the suggestion that ESFJs probably aren't Geminis: two of my closest family members are ESFJ Geminis. My ex-"bestfriend" was an ISFJ but very strong on FJ and S, and only moderate on introversion, so almost an ESFJ. The most characteristically "feminine" women I've known in my life are more often Geminis than other signs or more often born around May-June than any other time of year. The point is that xSFJ out of all the types most fit the stereotypical feminine personality.

I know it's probably all just a coincidence about the people I know, because I agree with Mr.Kelly that astrology signs don't actually correlate with psychological types in reality. BTW, Mr.Kelly, I like the way you include astrological signs as one of the typologies in your chart. Although people generally don't take astrology seriously, the 12 signs really are 12 personality types and astrology is probably the most wellknown of all personality typologies.

+++Thanks for your good points on xSFJ and the astrological types. I kind of follow the postings at www.9types.com, Lisza (though it's hard to tell who's who, sometimes). Your thoughts are interesting.

From:	Say
	sarah@mcfarland.co.uk
Date:	Wed, 9 May 2001

Gracie, you lie. We INTPs are Aries people, and you only disagree because you are jealous of our horns, and our association with an interesting planet.

Actually talking about this site, I am most definately an Enneagram 5, although I don't agree with that schizoid reference . . . actually, of all the personality disorders I've identified with, schizoid was never on the list.

Then again, I wouldn't be an INTP if I did what the majority did.

From:	Gracie Groove
	dooloop@hotmail.com
Date:	Wed, 9 May 2001

uncanny! I've been telling my fellow INTPs that there was a correspondence between type and astrological sign, and even though the majority of us [who actually answered my dumb little poll]were Geminis nobody wanted to buy it. No better way to sort of prove one's unfounded suppositions than to display a geocities website in their faces! Obviously everybody who's not Gemini is uh... I dunno, ESFJs or something.

hee.

-Gracie G.

+++Thanks Gracie. The only people that I pay any attention to are INTPs.

From:	Kevin
	kevin@metroeast.net
Date:	Thur, 3 May 2001

I'm a 31 year old male. I'm agressive yet definitely ENFP, Enneagram type 8, strong tendancies toward compensatory narcissim, and I'm a Gemini. Those don't quite match up with your chart.

I own and run my own technology corporation(s) and am very independent. I communicate extremely well and am also a talented musician.

My biggest fears are rejection and betrayal...especially in intimate relationships. As a result, I often require irrational levels of validation and reassurance. When I feel betrayed, I tend to obsess about it and must restrain myself from the compulsion to be confrontational.

I am capable of being charming or threatening to the extreme. I protect and extend trust those who are loyal to me. I perpetually plot (obsess about) revenge on those who betray me. Although never physically violent (due to self-restraint), I do not hesitate to be mentally brutal to my offenders.

I don't know if these things provide you with any further insight, but I honestly believe that your table is still under construction. :-)

--K

+++Thanks Kevin - great post. Your typing of yourself together with your other insights make sense to me if I see your type as Vigilant. I'll probably have more to say after I've thought about it a while.

+++The fact that you're a Gemini doesn't mean anything here. What I have done with my matches is comparable to your picking the astrological sign which you think is closest to your type, not just going by what your sun sign happens to be.

I don't have a problem with you identifying yourself by types which don't exactly correspond to my model. After all, you're picking what you want. My Correspondence is not at all scientific; it's imaginative, correlative, and prescriptive. Since my objective was to match the types of these various systems on a one-to-one basis, I ended up not with an empirical finding but an "ideal" correlation. I've imaginatively and arbitrarily decided which categories most closely match, and I prescribe how people *should* identify themselves typologically in the various systems. The whole thing (as is each of these typologies) is very comparable to astrology. The test of its value is not one of scientific truth or falsity but of usefulness in soul-making.

From:	anil neerukonda
	akcld@usa.net
Date:	Tue, 1 May 2001

I am a 27y old male from India. I was a schizoid guy in the past. I have read a lot of literature on this topic of late. I am getting over this personality and becoming normal after 3 years of medication on the drug sulbutiamine made by Servier Laboratories, France. I have an asthenic constitution and this is responsible for lack of emotion and motivation. Severe loss of perception ,thinking and loss of object relationships has made me remain aloof from people all my life . I believe to have become asthenic due to intestinal candidiasis right from childhood. The drug that i am taking is bringing my autonomic nervous system to normality and this is the key to my recovery. Candida causes adrenal dysfunction and this is the reason for lack of sex hormones in the asthenic/schizoid.

From:	Ginn
	CsWeapon@hotmail.com
Date:	Fri, 27 Apr 2001

goto www.britannica.com

+++ http://search.britannica.com/search?query=personality+types

From:	Morticia
	morticia_n_addams@yahoo.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001

I find it interesting that the axis of types revolves around S/N and T/F as I fluctuate in how I test from year to year around I/E and T/F with N and P being constant. It seems to be based on whether I am in a learning/networking mode (testing as E and T) a teaching/intimate relationships-focused mode (I and F) or a learning/intimate relationships-focused mode (E and F). I suppose if I were in a teaching/networking mode I would test as I and T. Perhaps the model could be made more flexible as to accomodate this kind of alternate fluxuation?

+++Thanks again, Morticia. A very insightful observation. But the MBTI® *does* accommodate this fluctuation if it's looked at as a four-factor dimensional system, which it really is, rather than as a system of types, which it really isn't.

From:	Morticia
	morticia_n_addams@yahoo.com
Date:	Sun, 15 Apr 2001

the Tarot also has a system of suits which would also be related to the four temperments:
Cups would be Idealist (this also translates to Hearts)
Swords would be Rationalist (this also translates to Spades)
Pentacles would be Guardian (this also translates to Diamonds)
Wands would be Hedonist (this also translates to Clubs)

Thanks Morticia. That's interesting.

From:	Jason
	wudong@free2air.com.au
Date:	Fri, 13 Apr 2001

G'day, I'm very interested in personality studies, and I just recently came across the Keirsey test, but I've found I've had some conflicting results with the Keirsey temperament sorter.. I have strong morals and ideals(Idealist), I am obedient and like hierachies(Guardian), I love deep thinking and learning(Rational), and I am very creative and dramatic(Artisan) I'm quite confused as to which personality I really am!

I have also noticed similarties between the Enneagram, Keirsey Sorter and a person's birth order - as though birth order determines your temperament. Because of my observations, I therefore have found your page very interesting.

Perhaps Mr Keirsey is one of the Idealist temperaments, which is why he explains all the personalities i

From:	betty
	bettyannw@aol.com
Date:	Mon, 2 Apr 2001

I am a 2, and ENFP.... (although INFP part of the time too)

4 for INFP makes sense but 6 for ENFP doesn't for me....

Thank you for allowing input.

Betty

+++Thanks Betty.

From:	Anastasia
	abanniko@lhup.edu
Date:	Tue, 27 Mar 2001

I've just come across with the enneagram technique while writing an article about the school play. Basically the whole scheme matched me but I wasn't taking tests and just fitted everything approximately. I'm still not sure if I'm more of Inventory or Solitary: they have different characteristics that contradict with each other. But since I'm Gemini, I can have both, right??? For instance, sometimes I feel like being alone and sometimes I can't wait to show off!

This site also helped me with my article, so thank you very much!

+++Thanks Anastasia. You're welcome.

From:	Stephen Wayne Nichols
	snichols@your-net
Date:	Sun, 25 Mar 2001

Your chart fits me pretty well accept for the astrological sign (I am a Taurus). I have taken all the other tests. I am an INTJ (a 67 out of 70 in Keirsey & Bates test), idiosyncratic, and a 5 (with a 4 wing) enneagram. I am also a drop out from academia and follow a shamanic spiritual path.

+++Thanks Stephen. Sounds like you're right on course.

From:	Glenn
	cos90@telusplanet.net
Date:	Sat, 10 Mar 2001

Interesting stuff. I've read Oldham's work and came out strongly as a Solitary type. My Enneagram type is a Five (5w6), which matches Oldham's result. However, my MBTI profile (which I knew before ever hearing of either Oldham or Riso and their tests) is ISTJ, which is at odds with the other two.

But I guess the correspondence isn't always perfect, is it? :)

I do not at all fit the INTP profile, which is the MBTI result that corresponds with my ratings under Oldham and Riso. In fact, the person who tested me for the MBTI told me that he would have guessed that I was an ISTJ without the test just from talking with me. (And I'm a librarian by profession, which is a classic ISTJ type of job).

OTOH, I'm definitely the Solitary type, and derive a certain amount of amusement from the fact that much of the diagnostic criteria for the Schizoid Personality Disorder could be applied to me if you stretched a few details. :-D

I'm also a Libra (born last week of September) but know virtually nothing about Astrology, so I don't feel qualified to comment on that aspect of your correlation.

Anyway, an interesting site. My undergrad major was in Psychology (whence my earlier knowledge of all these tests), but this is the first place in which I've found an attempt to compare and correlate the results of the various tests. I'm going to explore the rest of your site now. Well done!

+++Thanks Glenn. I'm usually forgetful of the fact that the correspondence works perfectly only in my own mind. You're message is very convincing.

From:	Tom Chou
	tchou@fas.harvard.edu
	www.fas.harvard.edu/~tchou/enneagram.html
Date:	Tue, 27 Feb 2001

I am an INTP 9.

In general, I have used the
Enneagram and MBTI as complementary
systems. Each system fills in
some gaps that the other one
leaves behind, and neither can
entirely substitute for the
other, in my opinion.
The MBTI talks more
about functions, i.e. WHAT
you do, the Enneagram is more
about the motivations, i.e.
WHY you behave as you do.
Both are important.

+++Thanks Tom. I agree that the strength of the Enneagram is its focus on motivations. Oscar Ichazo was wise to adapt the old monastic system of "Cardinal Sins" to the Enneagram because of its usefulness in examining the human heart.

The DSM intentionally refrains from presenting any theory of motivations behind the mental disorders and even Oldham doesn't provide a systematic listing of motivations for his styles; that is, there's no stated theory behind the DSM/Oldham categories. I'm hoping that evolutionary psychology will provide me with one.

Cory Caplinger took a shot at the principle motivations for each of Oldham's styles and I added some text from Keirsey (1978) in an attempt to come up with some motivations for all the types in my scheme.

Here is a typological representation of what I believe (acknowledging Florence Littauer) are the basic desires, or motivations, of the four temperaments:

Temperament Basic Desire Cardinal Type Noteworthy Example

Idealist
Rationalist
Traditionalist
Hedonist perfection
power
peace
popularity Conscientious
Aggressive
Leisurely
Self-confident Woodrow Wilson
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Ronald Reagan
Bill Clinton

From:	Christina Lee
	mostly_feathers@hotmail.com
Date:	Thur, 25 Feb 2001

You have associated the Type 9 enneagram personality to Myers-Briggs STJ. But to me Type 9 is too agreeable and friendly to be a T. However, maybe I'm wrong. It is possible that this agreability and friendliness of Type 9 is a way of controlling the feeling function and is actually the result of an INFERIOR feeling function. Do you think so?

+++Thanks Christina. I never became familiar with the MBTI® theory of functions.

I believe that too much is usually made of the 9's "peacefulness." My conception of the type comes from Don Riso's first book in which he describes the 9w8 as an ambivalent, hard to understand type, characteristically exhibiting both agreeableness and aggressiveness. Some other writers speak of the type's stubbornness and passive-aggressiveness. It seemed to me that the ESTJ *could* correspond to this pattern.

I note that in this study, http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/page0.html, the only correlation of Enneagram with MBTI® types that completely contradicts my correspondence is with the 9, where they find a correlation with INFP, ISFP. This supports your view.

From:
	night_rain1@excite.com
Date:	Thur, 25 Feb 2001

Very_cool.
I'm_an_INTJ,_type_5(w/a_4_branch),
an_Aries,_and_idiosyncratic.
What_led_you_to_make_these
correspondances?
I've_always_thought_it_was_contradictory
that_I_was_an_Aries,_idiosyncratic,
and_an_INTJ,_since_Aries_are_supposed
to_be_extroverted.
(note:my_space_bar_is_broken)

+++Thanks. I'm a 5w6, so I knew the 5s pretty well. The idiosyncratic match with 5w4 seemed easy. It's turned out to be one of my most accepted and sure correspondences. I matched the Aries *type* to the MBTI® ENTJ. The correspondence of INTJ with the Aries *type* is not nearly so good. It comes mostly as a result of following Keirsey's way of coupling the E and I types like ENTJ and INTJ (see also Libra, Taurus, and Gemini).

It's an improbable coincidence (1 in 12) that you are actually an Aries and also an INTJ Idiosyncratic 5w4. I don't put any stock in Astrology; don't use it at all. It's included here mostly to show that the 12 signs, or whatever, are just types.

From:	Brian Grimmer
	brian@onexus.com
Date:	Thur, 22 Feb 2001

Uncanny

I am an ENTP, Enneagram 7 followed by a close 3 and a Libran. After reading the descriptions of both the Inventive and Compensatory Narcissist I was totally gobsmacked.

Good Work

+++Thanks very much, Brian.

From:	Joyce Jace
	jmjace@jmjace.com
	www.jmjace.com
Date:	Wed, 21 Feb 2001

Mr. Kelly,
Not so much an opinion of the above, but rather a request. I'm writing an ebook entitled, "Valid Characters For Your Novel: from the notes of a therapist". It is to assist novel writers in character development of some very serious personality disorders. This is an educational text only and I have expressly warned readers to not use this as a diagnostic tool. I found your wonderful Web site and would like permission to include the URLs to your site. Also let me know if you would like to read this document prior to giving me this permission. I have just started writing it and have about 12 pages which should give you a clear picture of what I'm hoping to achieve.
Thank you,
Joyce Jace Roberson M Ed
www.jmjace.com

+++Hi Joyce. I'd be happy to have URLs of my pages included in your ebook.

From:	Anna

Date:	Wed, 21 Feb 2001

Can you tell me which types are most likely to suffer from uncontrollable anger and rage? Also, can anyone give me some addresses to discussion forums on personality or psychological types? Thanks.

+++Hi Anna. I won't venture a guess just on the basis of this one trait. But you can probably gets some responses to your questions at this discussion board: http://www.9types.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.actual.html

Messages: Archive 2

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